Busting DEI Myths with Mita Mallick

Transcript

Des Dearlove:

Hello. I’m Des Dearlove, co-founder of Thinkers50. Welcome to our weekly LinkedIn Live session, celebrating the brightest new voices and ideas in the world of management thinking.

In January, we announced the Thinkers50 Radar List for 2024: 30 exciting rising stars in management thinking brought to you in partnership with Deloitte. Now, as you might expect, artificial intelligence and all things digital loom large with this year’s Radar Thinkers as indeed does sustainability. But another key theme is making workplaces more inclusive and healthy for everyone, and that’s the topic of our conversation today. We like to make these sessions as interactive as possible, so please do let us know where you are joining us from and put your questions, insights, and observations in the chat box at any point.

Our guest today is Mita Mallick. Mita is a long-term executive working in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space. She’s the head of inclusion, equity, and impact at the software company Carta. She’s also the author of Reimagine Inclusion in which she addresses 13 myths that prevent organizations from embracing diversity, equity and inclusion. She’s co-host of the Brown Table Talk Podcast, a LinkedIn top voice, and a contributor to the Harvard Business Review, Adweek, Entrepreneur, and Fast Company. Mita, welcome.

Mita Mallick:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited for our conversation.

Des Dearlove:

Well, I have to say congratulations on making the Thinkers50 Radar List and on the book. And I know there’s lots of exciting things that have been happening since the book came out.

Mita Mallick:

Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you for acknowledging me and recognising me on the list. When I told my mother, she said, “Well, maybe Deloitte can now give you a job.” Because years ago I was rejected by Deloitte and I was like, “Okay, mom, I’ll ask around. Maybe I can finally work at Deloitte now that I-

Des Dearlove:

Well, we can put a word in. We will!

Mita Mallick:

Thank you. Thank you! Please put a word in for me at Deloitte.

Des Dearlove:

Our friends at Deloitte are always very interested in signing up the top talent.

Mita Mallick:

I’ll let Mom know. I’ll let my mom know.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah. Okay, please do. So before we get on talking about your work, tell us a little bit… I mean, just before we came on, you were saying there’s a story to the book, but there’s also… Tell us a little bit about your own journey. I mean, how did you end up working in this area? I suspect I might be completely wrong, but there’s sort of a personal story here too.

Mita Mallick:

There is a personal story. Absolutely. For anyone who’s a Marvel fan… I have an 11-year-old son. He’s almost going on 12, or I should say 21, with the way these kids act these days. But Marvel and the origin story, what is my origin story? I’m the proud daughter of Indian immigrant parents. I was born and raised in the US with my younger brother. And I always say I was the funny, dark-skinned girl with a long, funny-looking braid whose parents spoke funny English until it wasn’t funny anymore. And I was bullied a lot growing up, both verbally and physically.

Every single day in my community people let me know I did not belong there. And I did not grow up in an Instagram era, so I didn’t see myself reflected in products and services. And so I think the power of exclusion and that feeling, we talk a lot about inclusion, but that’s a really painful feeling. And I don’t ever want anyone to experience the things I did growing up.

And so my purpose found me early on and I had a long career. I still consider myself a marketer and storyteller. And I just was always curious as to who has the power of the pen, who gets to decide whose stories matter and who voice matters, and who gets on a billboard and who gets on a commercial, and why doesn’t anyone look like me? And so if you know my origin story, you wouldn’t be surprised that I ended up doing this work to build, I say fair and equitable workplaces for everyone.

Des Dearlove:

Now you mentioned belonging, and I think we’re going to be talking quite a bit about belonging and obviously the power of exclusion. So how do you define inclusion? Are they the same? Is that the same as belonging? How does that work?

Mita Mallick:

That’s a great question. Because right now, I’m sitting in the US, we were talking about this earlier, there’s a huge backlash against diversity, equity, inclusion. So it’s diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging. Is this woke? Is this anti-woke? There’s so much fear, and I think we’ve just lost the plot, which is, what does inclusion mean in our workplaces? It means that you have hired me for my genius and expertise. I am excited to come to work. And on most days I’m coming for my paycheck, all days, and some days I found my purpose.

And what is the one thing we want at work? We want to be seen. We want to be recognized, valued. Our voice matters. Our contribution matters. Because the worst thing is when you show up at work every day and no one knows that you were there or they care, or your work’s getting stolen, or you’re being talked over, or you’re being left off projects, or you’re not getting feedback, that is absolutely the most demotivating thing and demoralising thing that can happen. So I want everyone to remember this is about inclusion in the workplace, and it’s about helping each of us reach our potential so we can help reach the company’s potential.

Des Dearlove:

I mean, that word justice as well is another word that I always think is a powerful word, and it’s only now beginning to come through in the conversation. I think it’s helpful, but I don’t know, maybe it’s got the wrong connotations for some people. It sounds as though perhaps it works against the business case and just using people’s best skills in order to further the business.

Mita Mallick:

Absolutely.

Des Dearlove:

I do think there is a sense of justice that people should be recognised and rewarded for the work they do not have other people do.

Mita Mallick:

Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, I’ve never wanted an unfair advantage because I’m a woman of colour. I just want to be on a level playing field, and I think we all want that. We just want the playing field to be level so we all can be recognised for the things that we’re contributing.

Some of these words have been I think weaponised or changed around so that you feel fear in them. Woke is another one. I didn’t know the history of woke until a Black mentor friend explained to me the history of woke, and what that means actually is really about being aware of your surroundings and being aware of what’s happening in the world. But if you think about how that term has been taken over, you’re like, “Oh, that’s a scary term. I don’t want to use that term.” And you’re like, “But that’s actually not the history of the term.”

And so that’s why language matters. And constantly language is evolving, but trying to understand what the purpose of the word was in the first place, as you said, when it comes to inclusion in the workplace, what does that really mean?

Des Dearlove:

Yeah. No, I think language is so important. It’s so powerful in terms of control and giving people, empowering people. I mean, the reality is, I fear, I mean after years of thinking that most of the stuff that happens was just people being blind. I do think that there is a group of individuals who are very entitled who don’t actually want things to change. I mean, I hope I’m wrong. I hope people are just unaware, and they want justice rather than just wanting to keep their place.

Mita Mallick:

Yes, I hope so too. That’s the work we’re all doing together.

Des Dearlove:

Well, let’s not get too bogged down there. Let’s talk about the book, talk about Reimagine Inclusion. And I love the title because I think-

Mita Mallick:

Oh, thank you.

Des Dearlove:

… it’s a great way to go about it that we should be reimagining it and thinking about it anew. Tell us the story of the book. Because it only came out last fall, I think it came out.

Mita Mallick:

Yes, October 2023.

Des Dearlove:

It has a longer gestation period, I believe.

Mita Mallick:

It does. It absolutely does. I keep journals like many of you do. I keep career journals, very specific. I process the highs and lows of things that have happened to me at work, and writing is healing for me. And I started keeping career journals early in my career, jotting down observations and things that I was seeing.

So I started writing this book four years before it actually got published. And I had an agent that I had found. This agent worked with me all summer on the manuscript, or the proposal rather, and then looking at the full manuscript that I’d put together and said, “I’m actually not the right agent for you.” So left me. Then I ended up finding an agent, Josh Getzler of HG Literary, who’s been a great ally for me.

And I can’t tell you how many rejections we’ve gotten. I can tell you because I have a rejections folder. Just like people have folders of love notes that they look at on rainy days to make them feel better, I go back to that rejections folder, I don’t know, over 50. But things like, “Come back to me when Mita has a book more like Sheryl Sandberg. There’s no market for this book. There’s a lot of people who look like Mita writing books like this. And then of course Mita is a masterful storyteller. Her writing pops up the page, but she doesn’t have any followers. No one’s going to buy this book.”

And so it was devastating. I received a lot… The interesting thing too was there was nothing about the writing. Because I’m a writer, and that’s important. So if there’s feedback about, “This doesn’t make sense.” Right? “I don’t understand why you included this. This is not an interesting book.” I think that’s all fair feedback, but that was not the feedback as we were talking about the publishing industry. It’s hard to get published, and I found a lot of it to be superficial.

So I then started a podcast, as you mentioned, called Brown Table Talk with my good friend Dee C. Marshall. It’s all about how we help women of colour go from surviving to thriving in the workplace, and how allies can help. And Dee had a book deal with Wiley, and her acquisitions editor Victoria happened to listen to the podcast and said, “Your cohost is amazing. Does she have a book deal?” And I was like, “Does she have a book deal? She wants a book deal.”

So it was really that this sort of… The advice I have for anyone today is if you have a dream, don’t let it die, don’t let it go away. You just have to think about different ways to get to it. And for me, I just kept working on community conversation. I kept building my social media following because it seemed like an important metric for publishers. And so all of that came together, and then I had the book, which I believe is very well-written. And so all of those things happened and then that’s how. But I am not an overnight success. You know how you hear about some people having auctions, and oh my God, seven people wanted… No, that was not my case at all.

Des Dearlove:

Well, I’m really pleased to hear that it was Wiley as well, because as you probably know, Wiley are the Thinkers50 publishing partners.

Mita Mallick:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

I’m thrilled that they were the ones to spot the opportunity and to provide the opportunity. But publishing is a very curious business because if there isn’t already a shelf in the bookshop or a place to put the book, it’s an industry that finds it very difficult to bring something new into the marketplace. Unless it’s somehow someone’s a supermodel or they’re a rock star, in which case, which is just the celebrity thing.

And unfortunately, publishing I think has become very polarised. There’s a few people getting huge advances and selling lots and lots of copies of books, and then the rest of us are struggling a little bit. Okay, that’s really interesting and inspiring. And it’s wonderful that you kept going and that you’ve found a way. I think that’s often what we have to do if we want to breakthrough is find a different route, a way to get noticed or to get seen. But let’s talk about the content of the book.

Mita Mallick:

Sure.

Des Dearlove:

You explore 13 myths-

Mita Mallick:

I do.

Des Dearlove:

… around diversity, equity, inclusion that hold back people and stop people, even well-intentioned people who want to transform their workplaces. Let’s talk a little bit about some of those myths.

Mita Mallick:

Sure. Well, first of all, why myths? Because I was reminded of the stories I tell my children at bedtime. And I thought, “What are the stories we tell ourselves at work that just aren’t true?” And there’s a lot of great books on leadership and inclusion out, and I thought, “If I’m going to write a book, how am I going to add my voice in a meaningful way to the marketplace?”

And so I took, I would say, a tongue in cheek approach. There are 13 myths. The science behind 13, there’s no science. It’s my lucky number. So 13 of the most commonly held myths I had heard in my career, and they’re in particular clickbait for a reason because I wanted to get people’s attention. I wanted to have powerful stories of something that may or may not have happened in corporate America. That’s how every myth starts. And then I wanted to be practical. So I debunked the myth and then I left tips and tools and practical advice on how we can show up to work better tomorrow.

Des Dearlove:

So give us a couple of examples then. I mean, myth number one. Let’s go. I don’t know if we’ll get through all 13, but what the-

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. You know what? Look at this. I’m just going to pull up the book.

Des Dearlove:

There you go.

Mita Mallick:

Pull up the chapters and then let’s pick some. Let’s go with myth one, and then I’ll pick some more. We can get into it. Of course, I support Black Lives Matter. Why are you asking if I have any Black friends? Of course, I support Black Lives Matter. Why are you asking if I have any Black friends? And I hope all of you will go check out the book.

There’s a lot of self-reflective exercises, which we won’t have time to get into. But the heart of this myth is that too many of us are still self-segregating in our communities, in our personal lives. And so I don’t believe inclusion starts at our conference room table. I believe it starts at our kitchen tables. And I believe in many ways we’re doing this work backwards. So there’s an exercise I do in the book, and I’ll get to the bottom line of it and then you can go through it yourselves.

But if I was to ask you right now, who are the five friends you call, you text, you lean on for support when you need advice or guidance or you’re celebrating something? And I’m not talking about family. I’m talking about friends that you’ve curated. And here is the harsh reality. If they all look like you, act like you, and think like you, so many of us are still self-segregating in our lives. And so in the US, at least the research shows that two-thirds of white Americans are still self-segregating. Similar numbers for Black Americans.

And then I ask yourself, if you don’t have enough cross-cultural relationships outside of work, how can we then… I work for Des, Mita shows up, how can he expect me to lead this team that actually has diversity of representation? But I might not be equipped to lead it because I don’t have access to enough individuals from different communities. And when I don’t do that, that’s when I bring stereotypes to work. My only access to someone who is a brown woman has been media, film, movies, and those things can be dangerous. And so that’s the heart of that myth is there’s a lot of work we have to do at our kitchen tables before we even get to the conference room table.

Des Dearlove:

No, that makes a lot of sense. Two different ways I want to go now with that answer, but let me just go with the diversity thing because I think… And I’ve got to be careful how I say this. But I think in the US, often diversity is very much a race issue, whereas perhaps in other parts of the world it can be lots of things. It isn’t just about race though, is it?

Mita Mallick:

It’s not. And that’s the chapter, the myth starts with that. But what is diversity? It’s all the dimensions that make us up. It can be the colour of my skin, how I identify, who I worship, who I love. I mean, I’m a veteran. I served in the armed forces. I’m an individual with a disability. I mean, there’s so many different things that make us up. And so it’s really thinking about…

One of the things I always struggle with is when leaders come to me and say, “Oh, Mita, this is too political. I shouldn’t talk about this. We shouldn’t make any statements about this.” Over the years as I’ve worked with different founders and execs, and I always say, “Well, isn’t it through the lens of privilege we can say something’s political?” Right? Black Lives Matter, Islamophobia, anti-LGBTQ legislation, anti-Asian hate crimes. I can go on and on.

But the reason I bring that up is because it goes back to, how are we building relationships? Because it’s so easy to say something is political. But if you actually knew someone from that community and you had a relationship with them, you would say, “Oh my God. It’s not political. This is the community that’s being hurt and harmed.” You start to look at it differently. You start to build empathy for experiences that aren’t our own.

And so I want people to really think about that because that’s where the fear comes when we try to use the word, label political, that it’s like, “Oh, we’re going to ‘other’ it.” And it’s like, “No, we’re all human. And this is about connecting with people in ways that we might not have expected to because that hasn’t been our lived experience.”

Des Dearlove:

I mean, the other thing is, again, I’m going to be generalising here, but how we understand privilege too is that we are all privileged in different ways. You don’t have to necessarily be a white male who went to Harvard and did it.

Mita Mallick:

No, no.

Des Dearlove:

But a lot of people don’t recognise the areas where they are privileged, so therefore the reaction isn’t helpful because they don’t recognise the advantage they started with.

Mita Mallick:

I love that you brought that up because privilege is also a term that’s been weaponized, right? And so anytime we think of privilege, we think of race. We think of white privilege and we think of white men. I have privilege. Okay? If you want to character… I mean, I was in a food secure home. I had two parents who made enough money where we could live comfortably. My younger brother, parents, and I. I went to an Ivy League institution in the US for undergrad. I went to a top 10 business school for MBA in the US. I have had so many points of privilege, and even as I raise my own family, I have privilege.

Now, would I say gender and race have been two points of privilege for me? Probably not. But there are other ways in which I’ve had privilege. So anytime we have privilege and power in our workplaces, we all have some privilege. And so to think about how we can use that on a journey to be an ally for someone else. So that’s what we really want to think about is that we all have privilege. And sometimes the thing that is we get into the shaming, naming, blaming is where people start to feel uncomfortable. A lot of the privileges I had, I didn’t ask for them. I was born into a family where it was a food secure home. And I’m not going to be ashamed of that, but what I’m going to say is I’m going to use that privilege for good.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah. No, you’re right. I mean, the word can be weaponized, but I think it’s partly how it can sound like an accusation.

Mita Mallick:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

Most of us did not choose to have privilege, but we should understand that we had it and then decide what we’re going to do with that, step up that opportunity in how we can help other people. I mean, you mentioned the word allyship, and inevitably we will talk about that. I just want to take you back to where I was going to go the other way down those two intros.

Mita Mallick:

Sure.

Des Dearlove:

I mean, you were talking about if one were to do an audit of your friendship group, five people that you most want to, I think one of the points just made is if you are a leader of an organisation that values diversity and yet you don’t have the personal experience, what can that leader do with jumping into practical stuff straight away? What can that leader do? Because I think the onus, one of the things I picked up from the book is we can’t expect people from diverse backgrounds to continue to educate us. We’ve got to grow up, and that’s my understanding, but enlighten.

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. Thinking about a story you just sparked in me, which was I worked… and I shared this in Reimagine Inclusion, I worked with a leader who was in the state of Vermont. And when I was sharing all of this with him, he sort of growled at me and said, “We’ll meet up. What do you want me to do? Move?” And we have a global audience here. If you know anything about the state of Vermont in the US, it is statistically 99% white.

I am not asking people to move, but I am saying that with the pandemic, we all know the world has changed. You and I are now talking to a global audience virtually. And so there was absolutely no excuse for trying to reach out and build relationships with people because we have access to individuals from around the world. And so how does one go about doing that?

I’ll say early on in my career and my journey doing this work, I was sort of ashamed to say I didn’t know anyone who was a veteran. How is that possible? I don’t have a relationship where I know anyone who’s a veteran. So what did I do? I started getting involved with our employee resource group. I started meeting people. I volunteered for a nonprofit, which was helping veterans transition into corporate environments. I became a mentor. And so there are so many ways to do this.

If you have privilege and the means to travel, where are you travelling? Where do you go on vacation? If you can drive outside of your town and go explore different restaurants, different spaces and places, maybe there’s a small women business owner shop in town that you want to start showing up. That’s what allyship is. It’s also about the power of the wallet. You’re like, “I’m going to start shopping here once a week. I’m going to start meeting people.” It takes initiative.

And once you get to do it, I think it’s the basis of any good friendship. It’s consistency. It’s showing up. It’s about caring, giving and taking. It’s not more complicated than that, but it is the intention of saying, “I want to meet people with different lived experiences than my own and having that self-awareness.” And once you have the self-awareness, you can then do the work to meet people.

Des Dearlove:

And potentially stepping out of your very bubble, your comfort zone where we all, if we’re not careful, can end up without realising that if we’re not intentional and we don’t deliberately break the walls down.

Mita Mallick:

Absolutely.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah. You mentioned employee resource groups. What exactly are employee resource groups and what is the role in terms of strategy?

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. I mean, historically, in many companies you’ll have affinity groups. People have a dimension of diversity. I am an individual with disability. I am a veteran. I am Jewish. I am Muslim. Whatever dimension of diversity you have, you want to create community and conversation around that at work. Now I also talk about in the book employee resource groups are not our diversity, equity, and inclusion strategy.

You can’t ask these individuals from marginalised communities to continue to bear the burden of educating us, but they’re so important for community and conversation. And so many companies are having these events. You might not know about it. So I bet if you’re working at a company, particularly at a large organisation, there are events that you might not be aware of that you can be going to and attending to meet people and expand your networks.

Des Dearlove:

Okay. We’ve got some questions coming in. I’m going to make sure we get some of these questions put to you. Well, let’s go to the storytelling. There’s a question here. Storytelling is a powerful tool for change. How do you leverage storytelling in your work to drive home the importance of inclusion and representation in the workplace? I’m a big believer in storytelling.

Mita Mallick:

I love that. It’s such an underrated skill and a tool in business. It really is. Because it’s data, insights, action, and the story is so important of how you tell all that. All of us have a story, our stories are being rewritten. And so when I work with individuals, I promise you everyone has a connection to this work. It might be their story. It might be the story of someone else. It might be a story they’re not ready to talk about yet.

But I once worked with the leader years ago who one day… He was on the executive team, he really had no interest in our employee resource groups. But then one day showed up at my office and said, “I’d like to consider becoming the executive sponsor of…” At the time, the employees had named it individuals with disabilities and allies. It was really interesting. I thought, “What has sparked his interest all of a sudden?” His father had become very ill and was now utilising a wheelchair, and all of a sudden his story and his perspective had changed.

And so here’s somebody I could have easily said, “Oh, this person has no interest. The person hasn’t been involved.” But then all of a sudden their story had changed and they wanted to become involved because of their father. And so there’s the head and the heart. I always say the head can look at the statistics, we can understand the numbers, we can see what work has to be done in the organisation. But the heart is I have a personal mission or purpose because I want to help because either I’ve been impacted or I see someone else who’s been impacted. And that’s the power of storytelling.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah, no, the notion… I think at one level we do understand that we are, as human beings, we are hardwired for narrative and for story from the campfires, from our evolution, if you like. That’s how we learned about the world before we could write, even before we could probably scratch on the walls of caves.

And leaders, quite often the best leaders I’ve worked with have a sort of a… They have some signature stories. They have some stories which they’ve not created, they’ve extracted from their own lives, which they tell and they retell. And it’s almost performance. It’s almost the story carries their leadership DNA. And I just think if people would think like that and understand how powerful-

Mita Mallick:

I mean, listen, we’re all brands. We’re all brands, whether we realise it or not.

Des Dearlove:

It’s your brand story. Yeah.

Mita Mallick:

So what is the story? The other thing I’ll add as we get to the next question is also I loved what you said about storytelling being the oldest form of how humans communicated. I talk about this in Reimagine Inclusion. Also be careful of who you consistently go to for education and storytelling because it can be a burden. If I am the only Asian person in the office and you come up to me and say, “Gosh. Did you see that video of the 75-year-old Asian woman walking to church and being brutally beaten in daylight in New York City?” What do you expect me to say? Right? It’s horrible. It’s hurtful.

There are things that we can be Googling versus going always to people to ask for education through storytelling. So I think there’s a balance there in understanding in which relationships you can do that and where the burden is on you as an ally to do your own research when it comes to understanding more about a certain community.

Des Dearlove:

No, absolutely. Inclusion in society means ensuring that every individual feels, seen, heard, and valued, leading to stronger, more cohesive… That’s not even a question, but that’s-

Mita Mallick:

I love that.

Des Dearlove:

… agreeing with us. What inspired you to write Reimagine Inclusion, and what impact do you hope this book will have on the readers and the organisations they belong to? And we’ve talked a little bit to this, but what would-

Mita Mallick:

Yeah, it inspired me because of everything I’d been through in my career and continue to go through. And I wanted to create a book that was really practical with tips that I thought, “Okay, if I read this book, could I use it tomorrow at work?” And I am on a bold mission, unapologetic to create equitable workplaces for everyone. And I don’t want my children to enter the world of work I did. I don’t want any of our children to, and that’s why I wrote the book.

Des Dearlove:

Okay. We’re going to talk in a little bit, I hope, about the factors, the cultural pieces that need to be there in order to achieve inclusion. But what are you thinking? Where are we in the debate as far as you’re concerned? There has been a backlash.

Mita Mallick:

Yeah.

Des Dearlove:

What’s your take on that?

Mita Mallick:

It’s sad. It’s disheartening, but the work continues. And movements go through ups and downs, right? That’s sort of the history of these things.

Des Dearlove:

One step forward and two steps back sometimes.

Mita Mallick:

Yeah, it’s sort of like sleep training my daughter, I suppose. You think you made progress and you didn’t. But I do think if we go back to the diversity tipping point, May 2020, the murder of George Floyd, so many companies saying Black lives do matter on a US scale, on a global scale. And we see four years later so many of these commitments being cancelled, and you ask yourself why. Part of it is, and part of why I wrote Reimagine Inclusion, is because some of these roles were never set up for success.

A chief diversity officer comes in, they have no budget, they have no real decision-making power. They sort of report to the CEO, but they’re buried in HR. They have no team, no resources, all of these things, and no goals and metrics. And inclusion needs to be built in. It’s end-to-end ecosystems. It starts from the time you bring in talent and how you do that, how you’re building your internal culture, and then products and services, and of course values, right? And how you’re standing up for them in the external market, which Gen Z is more and more asking about, and they’re not going to stop asking about it.

And so that’s when these things have fallen apart is… I would argue many of these individuals were never set up for success and whatever the DEI plans were. For companies, there was no metrics around it.

Des Dearlove:

Again, we can talk about metrics. I mean, I almost want to say… I think I read an article where you were saying that actually you were embedded in this work at the time, but that moment when the Black Lives Matter moment happened, that did change the debate. It might even have changed the position that you were in. Does that-

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. I mean, it did. It was just one of those moments where you think there was a lot of good intention, and I feel like some of the impact hasn’t been felt unfortunately. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Des Dearlove:

Okay, let’s talk about the metrics. What should we be measuring? What can we measure?

Mita Mallick:

Well, I mean, listen, we all measure diversity of representation. So we’re not going to boil the ocean. You could start measuring one thing when it comes to workforce representation. Is it gender? Is it veteran status? What are the things that you’re going to look at in the makeup of your company? And it starts with the entry level all the way to the executive level and the C-suite.

Now, those are the superficial things to measure. The things that I think are really interesting that I talk about in Reimagine Inclusion is toxic leadership. Why do toxic leaders stay on and what’s the measurement for that? How many of us actually look at exit interview data and do anything with it? How many of us are actually watching? Well, Mita works for those, and she’s had five women of colour leave her team in the last two weeks. What’s going on there? Well, what happens is recruiting just builds more people in the seats. No one is actually looking to see what the root cause is.

And so there are so many metrics when it comes to what’s happening in your organisation, whether it’s exit data, employee surveys, do we ever do anything with those? Right? And I’m not saying and being tongue in cheek, I’m sure some people do, but a lot of people when it comes to people leaving organisations, there’s so many insights there. Let me tell you right now, if I was running a beauty product company and I had a four star review on Amazon, a two star, I would exit right now, this live… I would drop you and go call the customer. That’s how important the customer is, and we don’t treat our employees with that same importance. Ask yourself what kind of review your employee would give you currently.

Des Dearlove:

But what do you do if you’ve got… I mean, some people listening to this webinar will have got toxic leaders. We know they’re out there. It’s very difficult. We’re talking centuries of this stuff. We know the power hierarchy. It’s very, very difficult to dislodge someone unless there is a concerted will within the organisation.

Mita Mallick:

Part of it is data, right? You just can’t say I’m toxic without data. Like Mita is toxic. Okay, show me. But part of it is the courage and commitment that I work for you, I’m using you as an example, and you’ve heard this for a while. And you’re not willing to take the step to help me move on. There’s no succession plan. There’s this idea that I run the entire division and the work doesn’t get done without me because I’ve managed up so well.

So a lot of this is I’m asking leaders who have, and you know when someone toxic is working for you, most people know. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. And sometimes we have convinced ourselves because we have a personal relationship. Our kids went to school together. I’ve known you for 20 years, right? Mita can’t be that person. People are just being oversensitive.

And I think what’s happening now, particularly post the pandemic, people are no longer willing to put their well-being on the back burner, right? They’re just not. And social media has changed the world over the last 10 years. You have a microphone. I mean, TikTok right now is the whistleblower. Go on TikTok, and you’ll find employees talking about what’s happening in their workplaces. And so I think this is coming to a head in a way that, listen, toxic bosses were always in workplaces. I just think the world has changed where people are like, “We’re not putting up with it anymore.”

Des Dearlove:

Well, I hope so. I really-

Mita Mallick:

I hope so. Yeah.

Des Dearlove:

The other side is people who are well-intentioned and good-intentioned, who perhaps don’t know quite what to do. Allyship. How can you be a good ally in the workplace if you happen to have those certain privileges that we were talking about? I think we’re on the same page as far as everybody’s got some privileges. You’ve got your cards. It’s how you’re going to play the cards that you’ve been lucky enough, fortunate enough to be dealt. How can you play them in such a way that you let somebody else into the game?

Mita Mallick:

I love that. I mean, I have so many practical tips. I’ll just rattle off a few. We’re in here discussing Mita’s work, but she’s not in this meeting. Can we stop and grab her? Or can we reschedule for another time? Oh, that’s really interesting you brought that idea up. Actually, that was Mita’s idea originally. Did anyone realise that?

Or how about I’m up for a promotion. I just came back from parental leave, and it’s a big role. We’re in a talent review and it requires a lot of travel. And my boss in the room says, “Mita can’t do that role. It requires too much travel. She has a newborn at home.” Okay, if Mita was a man, would that conversation have happened? Is anyone going to say, “Well, have we asked Mita what she wants? Are we making some assumptions about who’s helping her at home with her family?”

And so I think it takes all of us to help interrupt bias. And a lot of the ways in which, as I ask people to do this, is to ask open-ended questions. When things are racist, sexist, homophobic, we call things by their right name. And there are other times people have unconscious bias and we help them see through it. And oftentimes, particularly when we think about stereotypes on the roles we think women should have and men should have at home, they come into the workplace. And so are we helping each other interrupt our biases? And that’s how we can show up as allies.

When you see something, say something. And sometimes it might not be, as we talked about, there’s real dynamics at work, you might not be able to do it in a public setting, but you could do it privately afterwards. You could think about it. You could strategize with others. There’s a lot of different ways to help and get involved.

Des Dearlove:

I love the interrupt bias. I think that sort of really resonates, and see something, say something. Yeah, it’s a curious thing that, what keeps us silent sometimes. And it’s habit as well. As I’ve got older, I’ve been in situations where I just watched the male entitlement and the weaponizing of sport and things like that so that you exclude people from conferences, certain people from conversations, all those things that happen around you and you don’t know quite how to break the cycle. But interrupt bias, that’s…

Mita Mallick:

Just with practice too. And I think many of us were raised, my dad used to always say to me, “Work hard, keep your head down and stay out of trouble.” It’s this idea that it’s not your place. But it is our place. Because if we spend so much time at work, we should care about our workplaces and care about each other.

Des Dearlove:

Okay, I’ve got a question from Bolton I’m going to put to you. It’s a long question, so I hope it’s got a question mark at the end. And it’s not just the same…

Mita Mallick:

Okay.

Des Dearlove:

…DEI addresses issues related to Western societies, but misses the point to privileges and disadvantages in other societies, for example, belonging to the ruling party and nepotism, creating privileges from which other societies suffer. Yeah, let’s generalise this a little bit more. Does this stuff apply equally in different cultures and around the world?

Mita Mallick:

Absolutely, it does.

Des Dearlove:

Would it work in any culture?

Mita Mallick:

Absolutely does. I’ve worked globally, but also my bias is I’m an American. I was born and raised in the US so that’s the centre of gravity for me. But of course having worked at large global companies, this applies around the world because we go back to inclusion being about productivity, about unlocking people’s potential, unlocking market opportunities, helping with retention, making sure you’re getting the best out of people and they want to stay. So it does not matter where in the world you live. And I acknowledge a lot of the conversations can be US focused, but it is also about understanding what the needs of your employees are in those different markets. Absolutely.

Des Dearlove:

And you touched on, very briefly, on Gen Z. I mean, we’ve done with the international piece. Now I’m going to go down… I’m going to do it generationally.

Mita Mallick:

Okay, let’s do it.

Des Dearlove:

So yeah, young people… I mean Gen, Z, we’ve heard… I’ve been around long enough to have heard each generation, Gen X is different. We’re all different until we end up having a mortgage and having to put your kids through school, and things like that. And by the way, I’m not demeaning it. I mean, there are things that happen in life that end… eventually mean that you perhaps aren’t quite so outspoken. But Gen Z do seem to be different.

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. I mean, this is a cross-generational phenomenon. And this is from the Edelman Trust Barometer survey, but they vote with their wallet, they’re belief-driven buyers. What does that mean? If they feel like a company is not acting according to their values, they will no longer buy products from them. They will also when it comes to the choices they’re making of where they want to work. Are you speaking up about these issues? Are you silent? And it’s a very difficult time right now. Will I say the wrong thing? Will I do the wrong thing?

I believe many leaders are still operating in the paradigm in which I was raised with my father, rest in peace. When I was growing up, he would’ve his tea and toast in the morning, read his Boston Globe in Boston, read the paper, go to work, come home at 6:00, and yell at my brother and I to get off the TV so he could watch the national news. That was his entry point into what was happening in the world, the paper and the TV. And now we all have this. And so there is no line now where work ends and society begins. And so this is what Gen Z is calling out, that my community is being hurt and harmed. I’m at work all day and no one’s saying anything about it.

This is the real struggle, and I think the real challenge over the next several years. Because many leaders are in denial. They don’t want to be having these conversations at work. They don’t know how to be having these conversations at work. And we have a hotly contested US presidential election that’s coming up around the corner. And the survey says, research that I read says, Gen Z wants to be having these conversations at work, but their employer doesn’t want them to be having. So all of this stuff is going to come head on.

Des Dearlove:

And we weren’t going to get into politics.

Mita Mallick:

No, I wasn’t. But it’s just this idea of whatever it’s-

Des Dearlove:

No, no, I absolutely agree. And we’ve seen in recent times this whole thing about the extent to which companies should get off the fence and actually put their credentials up there and act as advocates for, but we’ve also seen several companies do massive retreats in recent months.

Mita Mallick:

Yeah. I mean, listen, I think I talk about Disney in my book. Disney, wow. Look at the case of what’s happened there. They’ve been an ally for many communities. It’s not the Disney I grew up with. It’s changed a lot. But then you have Disney from a US perspective, they’re quietly funding anti-LGBTQ legislation through political action committees. And employees and consumers are calling them out on that. So the external doesn’t match the internal.

Hey, you said you were an ally for our community. You’re showing this through products and services. You’re saying you’re doing this, but then we find out you’re funding all this legislation. So it is wow, right? So you have to be really careful. If you say publicly you’re going to be supporting a community and you show you are, doing those things can lose a lot of trust. And I’m not saying you can’t regain the trust back, but you have to acknowledge the hurt and harm that’s caused.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah, hopefully. I think we both hope that companies will come around to realising that we talked about justice, which is a perfectly legitimate reason for treating people well and treating people properly. However, I think there’s a very strong business case. As you say, people will, we hope this next generation, all of us will vote with our wallets. People who backslide at this point should, will be outpaced by competitors.

Mita Mallick:

I believe so. I mean, inclusion is a competitive advantage, full stop. It’s a driver of the business. And the quicker people realise, that leaders realise that you’re going to outpace your competition. Especially right now when so many companies are cancelling DEI or walking back from commitments. Those who stay committed I believe will be ahead of their competition in the years to come.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah, it feels to me… I mean, it’s not the same thing at all, but the sustainability debate has gone on, on and on. It’s blindingly obvious that it should be the direction of travel. So why don’t you walk the talk, talk the walk. We are about to run out of time, but I do want to ask you if there’s one thing that you want people to take away from this conversation, what would that one thing?

Mita Mallick:

All right. Well, I’m going to say check out my book on Amazon or your local independent bookstore. I’m going to ask you all to do the following, be the reason someone feels included at work. Be the person, be the reason. Look out for what’s happening in our workplaces and look out for each other.

Des Dearlove:

Fantastic. Okay. Well, we are out of time. Huge thank you to Mita.

Mita Mallick:

Thank you.

Des Dearlove:

The book is Reimagine Inclusion, Debunking 13 Myths to Transform Your Workplace, and it’s published by our friends at Wiley. Do please check it out and join us again on the 29th of May when our guest will be Maya Djikic, author of The Possible Self, a Leader’s Guide to Personal Development. Mita, thank you.

Mita Mallick:

Thank you so much.