Neri Karra Sillaman: necessity entrepreneurship, sustainable fashion, and the great myth of resilience

Transcript

Des Dearlove:

Hello. I’m Des Dearlove, co-founder of Thinkers 50. Welcome to our weekly LinkedIn live session, celebrating the brightest new voices in the world of management thinking. In January, we announced the Thinkers 50 Radar List for 2024, 30 exciting new voices, and we’ll be hearing from one of them today. This year’s Radar List is brought to you in partnership with Deloitte. Now, AI, as you can imagine, is a key topic this year, as is making workplaces wholly inclusive and healthy for everyone. So too, is sustainability, which is something we’ll be talking a lot about today.

We like to make these sessions as interactive as possible, so do please let us know where you are joining us from and put your questions in the chat or Q&A box. Our guest today is Neri Karra Sillaman. Aged just 11, Neri arrived in Turkey with her family as refugees from Bulgaria with just two suitcases to their name. Few opportunities were available to them, but they worked hard to build a new life. They began selling textiles and leather goods in the markets of Istanbul. With the motivation to support her family, young Neri built relationships with tanneries, asking for offcuts of their leather. These leather scraps, she transformed into bags and accessories to be sold in the market, but she knew that education was the key to her future, and she won a place at the University of Miami.

On completion of her degree, she came home to launch her own high-end fashion brand with her family, building eventually a multimillion dollar luxury leather goods business which, as well as producing for our own label, is also a major manufacturer of several leading Italian luxury brands. Today, Neri as well, she’s carried on with the education, including getting a PhD from Cambridge, but we’ll talk about that in a minute, but today she’s a professor of practice in strategy and an entrepreneur expert at the University of Oxford, consulting for both emerging and established luxury brands. She is passionate about sustainable fashion, and has created the consulting firm, Moda Métiers, to support others on their journeys to grow and strengthen their fashion and luxury businesses. Neri, welcome.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Thank you, Des. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Des Dearlove:

Congratulations on the Thinkers 50 Radar recognition. Now, just before we came on, you were sharing that it had quite an impact on you.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes. So I told you there are two events, moments I will remember forever in my professional career. One of them was getting the phone call from the University of Cambridge, telling me that I was accepted to the PhD program, and the second one is getting an email from Monica, letting me know that I made the list. So these are two very important events for me.

Des Dearlove:

Well, I’m glad it meant that much to you, and we are flattered at Thinkers 50 to think we could compete with a PhD at Cambridge. Hey, listen, yours is such a great story. It’s very inspiring. Let’s start, if we may, talking about your amazing journey from Bulgarian refugee to Oxford University via Cambridge and the markets of Istanbul. If you don’t mind me asking, how did you come to find yourself a refugee at the age of 11?

Neri Karra Sillaman:

I was born in Bulgaria to a Turkish ethnic minority, and so in the 1980s, the communist government decided to carry out an assimilation process against the Bulgarians of Turkish minority. My family was one of them, so our names were changed. You were not allowed to speak Turkish. You were not allowed to practice your religion, your culture, and if you did, you were put in jail, basically. You were not allowed to play Turkish music, so this lasted for several years until my name was, for example, changed seven times. So I was born, my original name is Neriman. I shortened it to Neri later on, but my original name is Neriman.

Basically, in 1989, the Bulgarian government made an agreement with the Turkish government, and one night, the leader of the country came on TV and said, “Anyone who feels Turkish needs to leave Bulgaria.” In the end, I read a lot of books as a young kid, so I came home. My mother told me, “You need to bring those books back to the library. We are going to Turkey.” So we actually escaped from Bulgaria to Turkey. My father found some connections, a Bulgarian police officer who drove us near to the border, and then through the train tracks, we walked all night long with two suitcases and nothing else. So we crossed the border, and the second we crossed the border, there are few things I remember. It’s my father’s screams as we crossed the border, him throwing the suitcases, the confusion all around me, the fear and panic, and me making a decision that, if one day I want to have a good life, I have to get a good education.

This was a very, very clear thought in my head. No one told me that. No one said, “Look, education is really important,” and looking around me, it didn’t look like this would be possible, because first of all, we didn’t even speak the language of local Turks. We speak a dialect. We were put to live in refugee camps near the border. We didn’t have any papers, and eventually I was very determined. I got financial aid at the age of 18 and went to University of Miami, graduated in two and a half years, and it was during the University of Miami that I started to put together the business plan of our current company, because in Miami I realized every single business, at some point, was a small business. They were even created by immigrants, so there is hope out there.

Des Dearlove:

That’s the classic. I mean, we’ll come to this in a little bit, the classic thing of  … immigrants are often the most active entrepreneurs. I was talking to someone, actually. Well, we’re coming to it now. We’ve come to it quicker than I thought we were going to come to it, but I was talking to someone recently, a researcher, and they were saying they had a special name for it, and they called it necessity entrepreneurs, survival entrepreneurs, or something.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

Really, everything depends on them becoming entrepreneurs. Otherwise, their family won’t survive, and I guess that applies to you.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

100 percent. This is my topic in my PhD. Basically, I studied international entrepreneurship. One of my PhDs, because my PhD consisted of three papers, one of them was about ethnic immigrant entrepreneurship, and it is called necessity entrepreneurship, so this is spot on. So yes, in the end, from the age of 16 and why later, from the age of 16, I worked as a translator to Turkish companies, taking them to Italy, translating for them, so this gave me a foundation, because I realized which are the really good Italian suppliers, how leather products are made. My father and my mom, they were selling textiles, T-shirts, import extras, leather boots to Russia, and the former Soviet republics because, as I said, we didn’t really speak the Turkish language very well. We didn’t have any connections in Turkey. Culturally, we felt closer to that part of the world because it was communism, so I ended up graduating, and basically, we created the company.

Des Dearlove:

It’s funny, again, parallels. I’ve spoken to at least one CEO, if not a couple of CEOs, who’ve told me that they started, one of their first jobs was as a tour guide, taking people, and one of the things they said was, “You get to read people really well when you do that,” and particularly if they’re different languages, and you have to try to fit in with different languages and cultures, particularly if you want to earn tips, so you learn to sell yourself. There’s a whole bunch of, it’s almost like it’s one of those unexpected preparations to be a business leader. It’s actually leading tour guides, being a tour guide. So, fascinating.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

That’s very true. I feel like whatever you do in the past, somehow it’s like puzzle pieces. They come together to make the full picture, and whatever you do, it’s just a preparation for the next step. That’s why I think, without getting too philosophical or giving advice, I don’t want to give advice, but one thing I feel, whether you are washing toilets, you are a cleaner: it doesn’t matter the kind of job you do. You have to really be very present and give fully yourself to that job, because when I look back to my own life, every single thing I’ve done contributed to the next step. If I didn’t learn the lesson, it repeats.

Des Dearlove:

Yes, yes. That’s quite right. Yes, I’m sure. No, that’s very good. I think it was Steve Jobs who looked at it the other way and said, a speech he gave at Stanford, that you can only make sense of your life and your journey when you look back; you don’t know which dots are going to be significant, but when you look back, you can make sense of it, and you can see that you were always on a journey, but it’s not always possible to know the meaning or the significance of the steps as you’re going along. The only thing you can do, as you say, is to be present, to be in the moment, to step into opportunities, and make the best of the situation you find yourself in. So tell me, I mean, given what we’ve just talked about, and you’ll start, were you always drawn to fashion and to luxury fashion?

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes, I was, because in Bulgaria we didn’t have fashion, so this wasn’t possible. My grandmother would actually make dresses, because we were ethnic minority, so we lived together with the other ethnic minorities, which were the Roma gypsies. The Roma gypsies will, almost every single week, have a wedding. So my grandmother made the wedding dresses, and it’s funny, the town I come from is Asenovgrad in Bulgaria, and it’s now famous for wedding dresses. I grew up with this, and my grandmother made our dresses, so I was fascinated with fashion, because it’s a way for you to express yourself.

I think, for me, this is the most important aspect of fashion. It’s a way for you to create yourself, just as entrepreneurship and fashion, I feel, are very, very compatible in the sense that, with entrepreneurship, you get to create a life for yourself, for others. You get to create who you want to be. With fashion, I feel you get to express who you are, and you get to create a certain persona. So I feel I’ve always been very interested in fashion, because we didn’t have it, and I watched movies when I was growing up. I think that was another part where I felt fashion was expressed, and this is what I paid attention to.

Des Dearlove:

It’s interesting. Again, I’ve heard, talking to other people who grew up in communist countries, that sense of aspirational aspect to fashion, whether it’s  … you know, the kind of very clichéd thing was the Levi’s 501s, which weren’t allowed in Russia back in the day, but there is a sense that people who come from perhaps a place where that isn’t a possibility are more drawn and see it more as an aspirational dream.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

So Levi’s 501, you interviewed Chip?

Des Dearlove:

Yes.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

I really like that podcast episode. So Levi’s, this is our dream. Growing up in communist Bulgaria, Coca-Cola, I will never forget the first time I saw a Coca-Cola bottle, the taste of it. Even like Nutella, these things, you don’t have them in communist … well, in communist Bulgaria, we didn’t have them. Maybe if someone worked in the Communist Party, they were able to get them, and you were able to get them with connections. So when we immigrated, my dream was to get a pair of jeans. So after the refugee camp, my father found his aunt who had immigrated years ago in 1978, and we ended up living in her home with six other families. She opened her home to basically other Turkish Bulgarian relatives. And her son, who is today the manager of our factory in Istanbul, he bought me my first pair of jeans.

Des Dearlove:

Amazing. That’s amazing. I mean, I think we’ve always perhaps had access. I mean, there was a time when Levi’s were harder to come by in the UK even, and I remember years ago talking – when I think McDonald’s had first opened in Moscow – talking to somebody who said, “Going to McDonald’s in Moscow is a status symbol,” in a way that most people, certainly in the US, wouldn’t necessarily think of McDonald’s as being fine dining or being associated with status. It’s very interesting, the cultural cues and how the signals that they send to people, send to us, and the aspirations they create.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes. The way we created the business, so we sold leather products to former Soviet Republics: Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia. It’s because, when my father visited those countries, he spoke Russian. That’s why he went to see what’s out there. I mean, I don’t have business opportunities here. I don’t even have papers, so let me go see what’s out there. He noticed that people didn’t have leather bags, leather products, so in these particular cultures, having leather products is a sense of wealth. It’s a status symbol. In the year of 1999, when we started our brand, we only used Italian … we still only use Italian leather, so having this very high quality product, at the end of the day, what is entrepreneurship? You have to identify a need, and you have to provide value. You need to meet that need with a very high quality product at an accessible price, and there have to be enough people willing to pay for it. So our business, I don’t know if it would’ve been successful if we had started it in UK, because for example, here, people in Paris or in London, they already have these products, so we went to a market where that particular product was needed.

Des Dearlove:

That’s very interesting. Listen, we’ve joined by, we’ve got quite an international crowd in. I’m seeing people from Switzerland, Poland, and in Paris, I think, where you are speaking to us from, and Amsterdam and Portugal, so it’s quite a global gathering, and some interesting comments coming in. “I love your story. It resonates very much. Thank you for sharing. How can individuals and communities effectively rebuild and create resilient systems and infrastructure from scratch  … after a major disaster or crisis, incorporating lessons?” Well, that’s a good question. I mean, you’ve done it on an individual level, and we will go on and talk about some of the other things you’ve done, because there’s a lot here to unpack, but that’s a good point. What are the lessons for communities? I mean, how can people rebuild? I mean, unfortunately, very sadly, we are living in a world that seems to be going through a particularly bad period in terms of strife and suffering.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

By sticking together, and you said at the individual level, but I never see myself as achieving anything individually. I will never say the success I have is my own or the success of our business is ours, our families. It really was with other people and thanks to other people. I was able to have the life I have because of the kindness of others, of the encouraging word from a neighbor who said, “Yes, you can complete your degree.” This may sound like very small examples, but these matter a lot. I think often we think of resilience as an individual trait, but this is the biggest myth. I even wrote an article about that.

So sticking together, valuing each other in this life, and knowing that nothing is achieved at an individual level, but it’s thanks to other people. So at an organizational level, this starts with valuing your employees and creating an organization where your employees are the heart of your business. You have to pay them fair wages. You have to treat them equally. You have to create … so you mentioned Ludmila [Praslova], before we started our talk, when she talked to me when she was writing her book, she asked me how I created this inclusive organization. The fact that I know what it is to be discriminated against, what it is to be the other, and the challenges I have went through, and the pain that causes, only for this reason, we created a system in our organization that allows for everyone, from every socioeconomic background, ethnicity, ethnic background, whether they have disability; they are all able to work in our company, so you don’t have to just have a business in order to create this resiliency.

Des Dearlove:

Okay. Well, I want to talk a little bit more about the businesses and about some of the other things you’re doing, but again, I’m seeing there’s a lot of people very interested in your story and we’ve been joined by people from New York City, New Jersey, Singapore, and India. So again, we’re getting more people joining even as we speak. Now, I mentioned that you are passionate about sustainable fashion, and I stand to be corrected, but it almost seems to me that that’s a sort of paradoxical term. There’s a paradox in there somewhere, because the nature of fashion is that it’s not sustainable. It’s always changing. What is that? An oxymoron, I suppose, when you put “fashion” and “sustainable” together. I’m just curious to explore that concept and how that works because we do think of the fashion industry as being particularly fast moving.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

It is, and for this reason, I’ve given many talks, and I’m quite passionate to bring this to light, because you are absolutely right. Fashion is one of the most polluting industries, and every second a garbage truck of clothes is either being burned or sent to landfill, so the statistics are, really, very concerning, and I think that’s why it’s my mission almost to say sustainability can be compatible with growth. Sustainability, responsibility, and growth are compatible with each other, but I think the companies need to reconcile with the fact that how much growth do they want, how much sustainable return do they want? Instead of saying how much return, the key question is how much sustainable return. So, you are absolutely right. When I say we cannot promote over consumption and overproduction, because ultimately this is bad for the environment, but also it’s bad for the business.

You think, by overproducing, you are going to make more money. That’s not the case. That’s actually financially very damaging for businesses. As a company, some of the things, initially, I didn’t even think when we were creating the company we were sustainable, because we started 25 years ago. At the time, the word sustainability wasn’t even in the lexicon. What sustainability means? For me, it’s about treating your employees right, creating a product that is a very high quality, that is not discarded, that is left for other generations that has longevity, and this is a company that complies with law, that doesn’t see law and sustainability as an additional cost, but sees it as something that’s of value, and how can I produce something that is of value to my consumers? So these are the things that, in my opinion, is what sustainability is. So with our company, for example, we don’t change our styles very often. The same styles, they’ve been with us for 10, 15 years, so it’s very classic styles. We don’t promote over consumption at all.

Des Dearlove:

I mean, interesting too, I think I’ve seen where you’ve talked about the circular economy, because this over consumption and then discarding of product, that isn’t necessarily the natural order, that is just the way it’s gone in the 20th century.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

I can see a situation where, if a brand positioned itself as being, “We make really high quality products,” and in 10 years time, come back to us, and we will-

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Repair it.

Des Dearlove:

Yes. Repair or show you how to repair or just do the repair, so actually, instead of the status and the aspiration being in constantly changing clothes, you can see how people might buy into a different way of being, which is actually, “I’m really proud. I’ve had this piece of clothing for 25 years.”

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Absolutely. This is where, I would say, marketing and PR comes in, because a lot of the time, you are absolutely right, because in the past, if you look at fashion brands, and I’ve studied them, fashion was about beauty, craftsmanship, style. As it progresses, especially today, it’s about fast consumption. We cannot ignore this truth. Unfortunately, this is the case. We have influencers changing in and out of outfits, telling you if you buy this dress, you are going to feel a certain way, or it’s the latest thing, it’s a must have, you should have it. I think it’s now our job to make sustainability desirable, rather than making the next item of clothing desirable. I think I’m hopeful in the sense that I see some change in the industry. Of course, legislation is helping a lot, and we are going to see more and more of that in the future with companies also that they will have to become more sustainable.

Des Dearlove:

Do you think too, that … I mean, certainly in recent years, I was going to say traditionally, but certainly in recent years, if people think about fashion, everybody wants to be a designer, but behind the designers are the craftspeople.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

The artisans, the people who have the old skills, and I would imagine the fashion industry cannot run unless you have those very highly skilled people, and yet somehow they’re not congratulated or celebrated the way that the designers are.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

You are right, and this is why  … I was teaching before at the Royal College of Art, at the London College of Fashion, and especially a few years ago, everyone wants to be a designer. I think, again, in fashion schools, this is changing. As I said, I’m hopeful in the sense that there is a lot more awareness coming in, and I see with fashion brands as well. If, in the luxury sphere, they are obviously giving a lot more emphasis on their craftsmen and how the products are being made, so the more we see of this, the more education there is. From how a product is made, what is in that product, how much cotton, the more consumers are educated, the better it’ll be. I did say a few days ago, I was in a conference here in Paris, and they said to me, “Well, we expect too much from consumers. We just put too much pressure on them.”

I really disagree with this because, at the end of the day, this is a supply and demand. A few days ago, Renewcell, the recycling company of Circulose, bankrupted. We had several other companies, unfortunately, bankrupted as well. I think, why are they not? There are several reasons why this is happening, but one of them has to do with demand. If you educate consumers, and we tell them to look at labels to really understand what is behind their fashion choices, to say you don’t have to over consume. You can re-wear what you already have, because ultimately that’s the most sustainable thing you can do. If we give much more focus on repair and recycling, this is how we can start to change the industry, and to put more emphasis on influencers that matter, rather than influencers, and I’ve fallen into these traps, by the way. When I’m telling you this, I am talking like this because I am guilty of over consuming. My sisters-in-law will tell you that.

Des Dearlove:

Well, I think we’ve all … even I’ve probably done that, but very interesting comments. You’re obviously striking a chord, I can tell, by the chat. A lot of people are echoing your thoughts. A lot of people agreeing. Someone here, one of our LinkedIn users says, and this is, I think, metrics always, what we measure is what we see and what gets done, but saying cost per wear is a key metric, which is being used a great deal now in terms of conscious consumerism. But yeah, we should be judging things on how much wear we get out of it, not how quickly we discard things.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Des Dearlove:

I mean, interestingly, you referenced our Provocateurs podcast with Chip Burgh, who was the CEO of Levi Strauss, and one of the things he was proclaiming is that he doesn’t wash his jeans, because one of the biggest effects on the environment is the fact that people over wash clothes as well, but of course once he said that he’s never washed his jeans, that caused a bit of an outcry. I think people said-

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes, but he clarified.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

He clarified what he meant by that.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah, I know. It’s funny though, how it can have such an impact on people, but I’m sure we do, and that’s another thing. I’m sure we do also over launder, because I think he said he hoses his jeans down in the shower sometimes, but they don’t use to go to a washing machine as frequently as we put them through the washing machine. Kasturi Nayak says, “My daughter is nine years old. She works on all her projects using items we have at home. We try being as creative as possible with reusable, organic items. The mindset of the young generation needs to be inspired to help them make a sustainable world with beautiful fashion too.” That’s a very nice sentiment. I think that’s right. I think if people start young, and they’re influenced in different ways to perhaps –  I’m not saying all social media, because there are apparently some good voices and good influences – but there’s an awful lot of pressure to follow fashion.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Like I said, I’m quite hopeful, because I see the younger generation who think very differently, who put their attention much more on sustainability. Even – I reference Chip Burgh again – because he was telling you when he took over as a CEO, he realized the younger generation values sustainability, and he almost was forced to look at the business models.

Des Dearlove:

And I think, hopefully, that message is getting through, but it requires leaders like him who’ve got ears to hear and just aren’t listening always to the siren voices from Wall Street, because again, I mean, stock can be a bit in and out of fashion too. People buy and sell shares in companies not necessarily looking at whether those companies are sustainable, just in terms of their stock as well. If it doesn’t perform this quarter, they tend to get dumped, which puts the pressure on the CEO. So it all kind of cascades from there. Listen, tell us a little bit about what I understand to be a kind of consulting business, Moda Métiers. I hope I’m pronouncing it correctly, and also I want to hear about the Butterfly effect as well.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Oh, the symbol of butterfly.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Oh. So Moda Métiers, actually, I was associate professor at ESA university, and I had gone on maternity leave. I had just become a mother, and I wanted to bring, like I said in the beginning of my talk, bring everything together and have a lot more flexibility in my schedule. All my intellect, skill, and knowledge I have can come under one roof, and I get to share it with others. This is how Moda Métiers was born, and I work with startups and established brands on their business strategy, as well as on their sustainability practices. I have helped two companies with their sustainability certification, for example, and the symbol of butterfly, is because of my grandfather. When I was a child growing up in Bulgaria, we would go to the villa, and he would say to me, “Okay. If you see a white butterfly, it means your whole summer will be beautiful,” and I always look for white butterflies. So for me, they symbolize hope and that beauty, but they also, of course, symbolize my grandfather.

Des Dearlove:

No, that’s nice. And your companies also, you support child refugees and services to businesses of displaced people. Can you tell us a little bit about that? I’m sure people will be very interested to hear.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

I do, and in fact, this morning I received an email as well. I have pledged to help in any way I can to displaced people. With my knowledge, if they have businesses, I offer my consultancy services for free, so that’s one thing, because I thought, “What can I do? What can I do to make a difference?” So this was my way of contributing, and I contribute financially as well to Save The Children. Anytime there is a crisis and money is being raised. For example, during the Russia and Ukraine War, I did donate to Ukraine. So for me, the causes that are important for me, it’s not political, but I want to help in any way I can, so this was my thinking behind it.

Des Dearlove:

I have to admit, I mean, this may be slightly political, but I get so frustrated in my own country about the attitude towards refugees. You’ve got people who want to come and work, who have all sorts of skills, at a time when our country is desperate for talent and for skilled people, and yet with a lot of people, there is such a talent pool waiting to be harnessed, to be given an opportunity. It’s just very frustrating that some of the unfortunate political attitudes that are out there seem to persist and color people’s thinking.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

I know. Well, it is unfortunate, but sometimes I say I get frustrated as well. But in a way it is what it is and I feel you can do as much as possible to make a difference, but at the end of the day, you can only do as much as well, and you have to work with what you have. So there will always be people who will be naysayers, and the attitude will not be a positive one, but it’s also  … we do our best to make this change.

Des Dearlove:

We have some questions coming in. I’m always pleased to see Frank Carlberg is with us, as he is so often. He asks, “What are your thoughts about creating second hand fashion clothing?”

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Second hand fashion clothing?

Des Dearlove:

Yeah.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

In which type? Second, I see-

Des Dearlove:

Second hand, used. In other words-

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes, absolutely. I think there is a lot of innovative business ideas out there. For example, there are second hand resale apps as well, which are now very, very popular, with Poshmark, with RealReal, Vestiaire. I think, anytime you can make a difference, and this is a positive impact, whether it’s an innovative material, a different business model, innovative business idea, I think this is always good.

Des Dearlove:

I mean, we have seen a growth of sort of vintage clothing.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

Really, which is sort of a sustainable way of thinking, and amongst students, possibly because they’re more price sensitive, but it is actually very fashionable to be wearing clothes that are old.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Absolutely, or that you found in the thrift store. Like you said, especially among the younger generation. That’s why I find it so encouraging. If you said before, “I bought this at a second hand store or at a thrift store,” I don’t know … people may have had different ideas, but today that’s a good thing. I buy from second hand, I use Vestiaire Collective, and I take pride in it, and I take immense pride when I’ve used something for a very long time.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah, very good. Some more comments. Kabir Shah says … this is more moving into the technology space … “We’re likely to see continued development in biomaterials, plant-based materials that can be used in the fashion industry; however, it feels like investors and companies have recently soured on innovations.” They give you an example of Milo on leather from both threads. “Speaking of supply and demand, how much of the onus is on the brands to demand better of themselves and invest in these materials?”

Neri Karra Sillaman:

It’s a very, very good question. Recently, as I said, I was in a conference, here in Paris, on innovative materials, and I’ve written about Renewcell. Again, the companies will say, “We are going to invest in sustainability. We are all about sustainable materials,” but then the reality becomes very different. So right after the pandemic, you saw H&M, Zara, different companies saying, “This is great. Very, very good, very innovative,” but then the reality is, a few years later, it needs to go beyond marketing and PR. They have to walk the walk, talk the talk. You know that saying.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

If they are going to make this promise, they also have to stand behind it, so one thing. Second thing, with innovative materials and any kind of startup, I feel, from what I’ve seen, one mistake is they start to grow very fast, and they think other investors, other money, money coming from outside, is going to be enough to sustain them, but from what I’ve seen, what I experienced, that’s not always the case. So for startups and companies that are in the innovative material, I will tell them about my philosophy, which is frying in your own oil, being self-sustaining, especially in the first few years, because this is going to push them to be more creative. It will open the doors to more customers. It will allow them to look for more opportunities than the ones that are available out there, so this will be my advice as well.

Des Dearlove:

I can’t claim to be up to speed in terms of what’s going on these days, but there was a time when particularly the fast fashion companies had a bad reputation for also using sweatshops and those sorts of activities. I don’t know if that’s still the case. Yeah, I suspected it would be. It is logical in a certain sort of way, but it seems to me that one of the great opportunities for some of the new technology, and I’m thinking about something like blockchain, is we should be able to now provide the provenance in terms of food chains, but also in terms of clothing and other fashion items, by which I mean we should be able to transparently be able to see the entire story-

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes.

Des Dearlove:

… From origin all the way through, so that we are in no doubt as to where this piece of clothing was made or, for that matter, where this piece of whatever food you choose to eat, where it’s been grown or where it’s come from. So that sort of greenwashing aspect of companies proclaiming they’re sustainable, but not walking the walk, we should be able to. I mean, I’d be very interested if a company actually really based its strategy on that and said, “Look, you may pay a little bit more, but actually, you can look at the entire chain of events.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

There is several brands who do this very well. There’s also a startup. Not a startup anymore, EON. It’s a chip, basically, and they work with Chloe with all the leading luxury brands, so you are able to trace the whole entire supply chain. Even in our company, for example, we are able to tell you every single item and where it came from, including the letter, including where that animal is coming from, so it’s possible to do that.

Des Dearlove:

Yeah. That’s very powerful.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yeah. Another part of that is legislation, because legislation in some jurisdictions, there is legislation that forces you to have that. Not in all, but I think as time goes on, this is going to get a lot more relevant. So you’ll have to show transparency in your supply chain.

Des Dearlove:

I knew we’d run out of time, but we have run out of time, but a comment from Dima Anbari says, “How costly is the sustainability route for startups? If the startup is trying to be strictly sustainable, but all the requirements and certifications are increasing the price and supply chain complexity, how can they strike a balanced approach?” I mean, just before I let you loose on that one there, I would say, I mean, what is the cost of not being sustainable, really?

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Yes, absolutely. But this is a very good question, Dima. You ask about sustainability certifications, and they are very, very costly. So for a startup, I would say you don’t have to necessarily go through the sustainability certification, but there is a system in place which, if you already followed that system, it’ll allow you to become sustainable, seeing what they pay attention to. I think just, you don’t have to pay for the sustainability certification, and I wouldn’t advise that you do, to be honest with you, especially if you are a startup. Sustainability, it doesn’t have to be expensive. It wasn’t for us. When we started, we bought scraps of leather from Italian suppliers. They were throwing them away. We worked initially with just one craftsman. Today we have 174. In the beginning, you don’t have to start very big, but every step has to be done well. In that sense, sustainability is not costly. I would also warn against fast growth, because that’s when I see the company stripping … and it didn’t work.

Des Dearlove:

Great answer, great question. Listen, we have run out of time, but where can people find out more about your work? There’s a lot of interest, and just say a word about your next piece of research that we were talking about before we came on.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Sure. My next piece of research, I decided to focus on the intersection between immigrant entrepreneurship, sustainability, and business longevity. They can find me on LinkedIn. I am trying to be as active as possible on LinkedIn. On Instagram, I am at prof.neri, and my website is modametiers.com.

Des Dearlove:

Fantastic, okay. Well, we are out of time. Huge thank you to Neri.

Neri Karra Sillaman:

Thank you.

Des Dearlove:

Please do join us on the 6th of March at the same time when our guest will be Natalie Nixon, author of The Creativity Loop. Until then, thank you for joining us.