The Provocateurs:

Stuart Crainer:
Hello, and welcome to The Provocateurs podcast. I’m Stuart Crainer, co-founder of Thinkers50. In Provocateurs, we explore the experiences, insights, and perspectives of inspiring leaders. Our aim is to provoke you to think and act differently through conversations with some fantastic people. This is a collaboration between Thinkers50 and Deloitte. Joining me is Kulleni Gebreyes. Kulleni is the US Consulting Life Sciences and Health Care Industry Leader and US Chief Health Equity Officer at Deloitte. Kulleni, it’s great to have you with me today, and we have a fantastic guest lined up. Please, could you tell us more?

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Stuart. It’s wonderful to be here and we certainly have a phenomenal guest here today. She is Neri Karra Sillaman. Neri grew up in Bulgaria, and in 1989, when she was 11, her world and her family’s world was turned upside down when they were forced to leave their home. After spending some time in refugee camps, Neri and her family settled in Istanbul, Turkey, and began rebuilding their lives. They launched a family business, selling textiles and leather goods to tourists. Neri then won a scholarship to study in the United States. After her study, she returned to Turkey where she put her degree in business management to great use and created the Neri Karra brand, and has developed into a multi-million-dollar sustainable leather goods and accessories brand.

Now, along the way, Neri has received a doctorate from the University of Cambridge. She’s an author of a book, Fashion Entrepreneurship, is a professor of practice and an entrepreneurship expert at the University of Oxford. Neri is also a member of the Thinkers50 Radar community for 2024. She’s most recently founded her own consultancy firm, Moda Métiers, to help fashion and luxury entrepreneurs take their businesses to the next level. If your head is spinning and you feel out of breath, I’m out of breath for you, Neri. What an incredible story. Maybe I’ll start with the first question to say, how did you begin to become interested in the business world?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
That’s a good question. I think after we immigrated, I think actually in all honesty, it started when I went to do my bachelor degree at University of Miami. Of course, being an immigrant in Turkey, I will actually take you back a little bit earlier. When I was an immigrant living in Istanbul, you don’t necessarily understand, especially at the time, no one tells you how the educational system works. So I started to look at the Turkish university and which degree I can apply to, and I thought, okay, out of all of them, I think business management will be the most suitable for me. But there wasn’t much guidance and it was almost like myself finding my way through this very dark forest, let’s say, but it was only when I got to University of Miami, I got very curious about how businesses were created.

And I guess maybe at the background of this is the fact that I wanted to create a better life for myself and for my family. Especially in my case, when you come from this immigrant background, you want to create a better life, you want to get out of poverty, you want to live a better life and to have better opportunities for yourself and for other people in your family. For me, I thought the way to that is through business. And it was at the University of Miami, especially being in the US, you know, the big American dream, where you see that anything is possible, that at some point all these big corporations started very small, and I was very curious about how that could happen.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, there’s so many things that you’ve said in there that truly resonate. I myself, I’m an immigrant from Ethiopia and had lived in the same civil war situation, and so I just applaud you, and your story truly resonates for me, that you looked up to the horizon in the midst of the challenges that you were facing.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Thank you. I do think having an immigrant background, actually that’s my most recent research. I want to understand the immigrant mindset, the immigrant entrepreneurship and how their unique capabilities create businesses that last. We have Moderna, Pfizer, Google, Calendly, incredible businesses, eBay, for example, that you don’t necessarily know, but their founders are immigrants. I’ve been researching about that and finding out how their mindset and their unique entrepreneurial capabilities are quite different than other entrepreneurs, so that’s actually my next line of research.

Stuart Crainer:
I think it’s a really valuable line of research. Because as you say, some of the biggest businesses in the world were started by immigrants or run by immigrants. We see in all countries the hunger of immigrants to make the world a better place and create a better place for their families. There’s an amazingly powerful motivation.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Absolutely.

Stuart Crainer:
For people watching and listening, tell us about that first move from Bulgaria to Istanbul. What happened and how has it informed the rest of your life and the rest of your family’s life?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
I was born in Bulgaria to ethnic Turkish minority, and the communist government, the Bulgarian communist government at the time decided that they are going to carry out what they called an ethnic assimilation process. They called it, there are no Turks in Bulgaria, and this was agreed by the parliament, and the idea was you cannot, basically our names will be changed from Turkish names to Bulgarian names. Even the cemeteries, they forcefully removed the names on the stones. They forcefully changed our names. My name was changed seven times. You were not allowed to practice your religion. You were not allowed to speak Turkish. Our schools were actually, at the time, I was at elementary school, so the schools were changed into these name changing stations where they will come to your home, take you forcefully, and bring you to the schools where they will give you a book and out of this book, you will choose a name for yourself. With my family, my father was very proud. He’s a very proud man. He decided that we are going to run. For months, we ran and we even spent, I remember spending winters in the hut of my uncle up in the mountains. Eventually, when you return, you realize that you are the only one with a Turkish name still, and you do need to, at the end of the day, change your name. All of this came to an end in 1989 when the president, the communist president, Todor Zhivkov, he said anyone who feels Turkish needs to leave Bulgaria now. We took two suitcases, nothing else, and we left for Turkey. As Kulleni mentioned, we were in immigrant camps, refugee camps. We stayed there for a few months, about three-four months. In the end, my father found a truck driver, paid him some money, and along with a few other people, on top of the truck, we made our way to Istanbul.

It was very, very difficult times, but I remember making a decision to myself when we immigrated at the border, my father running with the two suitcases and just screaming. At that moment, I remember saying to myself, if one day I want a better life for myself, I need to get a good education. It was almost like an obsession. In all honesty, it didn’t look like I could get that good education because we didn’t speak the local Turkish language. We went to, I don’t know how to call it, it’s like a language assimilation program where we had to learn Turkish from the very beginning. When I started school, it was quite a shocking experience because it was 83 students in one classroom, and we lived in what I call the ghetto of Istanbul. You don’t have the money and you live in these very poor areas. In the end, all I focused on was getting a good education. I always got very good grades and I ended up finding an opportunity and applying to University of Miami, Boston College as well, University of Nottingham, Manchester University. This is age 18. As I said to you in the beginning, I didn’t necessarily know how I could do it. As I was telling you, finding my way through this very dark forest, but eventually, how it shaped my life, it made me become very determined. It made me understand the value of hard work, having a very clear vision. I think that’s incredibly important. In some ways, I think it makes me well, now, as you mentioned in the beginning, we started our own business, well it’s a business that’s been recognized by B Corp as a social innovator because the majority of people we hire are immigrants, refugees, people from disadvantaged backgrounds. For instance, in Bulgaria, 90% of our employees are women from disadvantaged backgrounds over the age of 55 who are not able to find employment. There are people with physical disabilities, mental disabilities. These are people that don’t easily find employment, especially in Bulgaria, and in Turkey where our manufacturing plants are located. So I think coming from a background and an experience that makes me feel like I know what it is to be discriminated against, not to be given chances, I’ve set up processes within the business that will prevent any type of discrimination because I know how much it hurts. I think that’s how it shaped the way I am today.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, the richness of your story is almost overwhelming to me, especially since there’s so many parts of it that truly resonate. I grew up, as I mentioned, in Ethiopia in the early 70s when the Civil War started and the communist government took over. What you described in terms of assimilation and the physical, the emotional, the mental, the spiritual attack on your identity is something that I can certainly tap into memories.

I have a question for you though. It wasn’t until I was age 40 that I actually realized and identified as a refugee, and this was as my eight-year-old, or eighth-grader, son came and was learning about refugees. Because the way my parents allowed us to experience that time was like, life is hard and we’ve just got to stick together and figure it out. Everything that you described lets me know where you get your resilience as a human, as a leader. Curious if you knew the trauma and how traumatic the experiences were, and as you think about yourself as a business leader and as a leader in sustainability, how does that show up in how you build a resilient organization?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
That’s a very good question. Because I think about a year ago, I started to write about resilience, it’s not necessarily that it’s something I studied in my PhD, or it’s not even necessarily my area of expertise. I’ve been observing more and more and thinking when I write about sustainability, and I don’t see sustainability as being apart from being a resilient organization or having a resilient workforce. This is what led me to write about resilient leadership, psychological resilience at the workplace, because today we have an increasing number of people who are not happy with the work that they do. There is a lot of quiet quitting. Most people also, I feel, don’t feel that their values align with the values of the organization, and there is this psychological burnout that happens. For me, having a sustainable organization equals having a resilient workforce. I started to write about that and how that informs how leaders can restructure their businesses and how they can think about their businesses because sustainability doesn’t have to be only about using the latest innovative material or using eco-friendly materials. It’s about your workforce. It’s about the resilient workforce that you have.

Stuart Crainer:
Obviously, my life experiences don’t compare to the life experiences of you, Kulleni or Neri. What strikes me now is you were telling your story was the word decision. You said that your family made the decision to run, which is probably the bravest decision you could ever make really, because you’re going totally into the unknown, but it’s a decision, isn’t it? It’s having the strength to make the decision. Then the other thing you said was you made a decision for yourself to seek out education. Again, you made a decision consciously, whereas I think other people such as myself, other people who don’t have those experiences drift into – one thing follows another – a certain inevitability. You learned the power of making decisions and taking that leap into the dark for yourselves, and perhaps a belief that you can change things because you had to and you did. It just struck me that the decision-making is a legacy of that experience, I would’ve thought.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Well, Stuart, I actually never thought about it this way. You are now giving me a whole other idea of research and my next paper, even. I never thought about it that way, but you are absolutely right. Because when I spoke to Des about a month ago, he also talked about necessity, entrepreneurship, and almost like you have to make these decisions out of necessity. That’s also an interesting aspect because you have no other choice. I feel, in my opinion, you don’t have another choice because you either will stay stuck or you will stay in more challenging circumstances or you need to move forward. It’s almost like a forced decision. That’s how I view it.

Stuart Crainer:
I think staying stuck is an option for many people.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri and Stuart, that really makes me think of a quote from Bob Marley, and I love reggae music. He mentions that you never know how strong you are until being strong is your only choice. Stuart, as you mentioned, there’s some people who choose not to be strong. Neri though, the other thing that really jumps out at me in your choices is you avoid a lot of false choices. As a fellow self-identified fashionista, now, I don’t know if I can stand next to you and hold that card as tightly. I love fashion, I love shoes, I love bags, I love accessories. When I listen to you and I read the work that you’ve done, I love that you’ve actually linked fashion and sustainability together. One seems like it’s a complete luxury, and the other one is a necessity to keep us and the human race alive. Tell us more about how you discovered the link between fashion and sustainability and what you think we should know about it.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
That’s a very good question. I loved fashion since almost, well, since I was a very little girl. When I was speaking to Des as well, I told him in Bulgaria during communism, we don’t have fashion. It doesn’t exist, really. It’s all; our grandmother made our clothes. I mean, I’m talking about my own ethnicity as well, because we didn’t necessarily live in – all the ethnic minorities, which were the Roma and the Roma Gypsies and the Turkish ethnic minorities lived in the same area, and add into that communism. We didn’t have fashion. I was fascinated by fashion because I thought it’s an incredible expression. It wasn’t just “I want jeans because we didn’t have them,” but for me, it felt like, what an incredible way to express yourself. You can tell such a different story, depending how you choose what to wear.

This is how I was intrigued by it initially. Then when we moved to Turkey, I almost ended up in fashion, I would say by accident, because at the age of 16, I started to work as a translator to Turkish leather producers, taking them to Italy, to suppliers. I discovered, I started to learn how leather products are really made, where the really good leather producers are, who these suppliers are. Another thing that struck me once we decided to start our own business is that these suppliers, they throw scraps of leather. There is these extras or leather that has some minor defect, they throw them. At the time when we were starting our company, we didn’t have capital. We didn’t have really that much money to begin with. So the idea was to buy the scraps of leather – some of the suppliers even gave it to us for free – create very small collection and sell it to the distributors that we knew in Russia and Ukraine and former Soviet Republics and Eastern European countries, because that’s where our connections were. Today, this is called sustainability. We have brands that are built only on the premise that they take import extra or that they take some minor-defected leather skins, and they turn them into bags and leather accessories. Again, as I said, I didn’t necessarily come from this, the traditional fashion system where you know the right editors, where you know the right people. Everything had to be created with our own resources, people that we knew, our own family. I call this self-sufficiency. We didn’t have the luxury to be able to raise money or do fundraising. We didn’t have access to that.

To me, this is also sustainability because I do think today, we have a problem with over-consumption and over-production and what I call over-borrowing. When I advise startups, I tend to discourage them from going out there and going into this over-borrowing because it limits their creativity, it limits how they can start a business. I’m jumping from one topic to another maybe. A few weeks ago, there was a sustainable leather company called Renewcell, and before that, we have several other companies who bankrupted. Of course, there are many, many reasons for that. The fact that they immediately go into over-borrowing and not necessarily what I call frying in their own oil, it can create problems later on.

Stuart Crainer:
So it’s better to grow a business organically?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Yes, I really am a big believer in that, because what I’ve seen in our own industry, what I’ve seen with clients, I don’t say don’t ever raise money, that’s not very smart either. I think it can make the businesses a lot more sustainable. Because what is sustainability? It’s longevity of the business as well. It can allow them to be more creative, have unique ideas, partnerships even, that if they borrowed money immediately, they may not necessarily unlock these opportunities.

Stuart Crainer:
The brand is Neri Karra, how big is the organisation today?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Well, we are, as Kulleni mentioned, we are a multi-million-dollar business. We produce for Italian luxury brands. The names I’m not able to disclose because I have an NDA with them, but they are very prominent, top best-selling luxury brands. We have two different manufacturing operations, in Bulgaria and in Turkey. In Turkey, we have 175 craftsmen only. In Bulgaria, this number is 90. We also produce our own metal accessories as well. We have a production for that in Bulgaria. In a way, the business model of the company has been focused on manufacturing, on craftsmanship. This is how we started from the very beginning. Our own brand, Neri Karra, we have been predominantly selling in Ukraine and Russia. I talk about that as well because this was a challenge when the war started.

Again, forming strong relationships with your suppliers and with your partners pays off. Because when we got out of Russia, we have the CEO of the leading Italian luxury label who said to us, “We understand that your company is taking a very major step now of getting out of the Russian market, we know this is not easy. We want to support you and we will increase our order to you.” I talk a lot about community and relationship building in business, and this is where it’s a very good example how the relationships that you build matter greatly.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, as I listened to you, I hark back, Stuart, to what you said around the choices, and you’re very intentional about all the choices that you’re making in your business. I can’t help but go to two potential tension-causing things or competing priorities in tension, which is you mentioned over-production and over-consumption and sustainability. How does that show up and how would you guide our audience to think about it? The fashion industry is trying to sell you more, like a lot of other industries, and then the more we consume and the more we waste, that creates challenges for sustainability. I know you’ve thought about this, you’ve written about this. Tell us more about personal choice and personal responsibility in this context.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
I did two different TEDx Talks on this topic. I was invited to basically create the talks that are going to allow, that are going to be the solution for the fashion sustainability problem. In the end, I went to them and I said, “Fashion can never be sustainable, really. There is not one innovative solution that I can come up with because we have an elephant in the room and that’s our addiction to over-consumption and over-production.” I see two here, both the consumers and the manufacturers. Recently, they told me, I was at a conference and I was told, “Oh, but we expect too much from consumers because it’s not really their responsibility.” I disagree with that because at the end of the day, we got into this together, consumers and producers. In order to solve the sustainability, I call it the sustainability problem in fashion, we need to come up with a solution together.

As consumers, the most sustainable thing you can do is to keep wearing what you already have. With producers, I think there has to be a lot more mindfulness, accountability, when it comes to overproduction. This is actually a significant and very big problem in the industry because the industry itself, it’s a system that wants to sell you more, that will convince you that you need the next item, the next dress, the next jewelry, the next bag, but that’s actually false. We are seeing a lot more innovative solutions here. We need to focus on alternative business models. We need to focus on quality and durability where you can repair and keep reusing what you already have. Again, my message to producers and to companies is you need to ask yourself the question, “How much growth do you want?” Because we want growth, that is how, I have been seeing a lot of companies who are very focused on more growth, more achievement, more expansion, but there has to be the question of how much sustainable growth do I want? I think we are at the threshold and we are not going to go back to what it was before. We are seeing a lot more legislation today happening. Thankfully, with France for example, they are voting to pass a bill here that is going to tax fast fashion. There is the Fashion Act in the US that they want to make the producers a lot more responsible when it comes to their supply chain. This is highly encouraging. We are going to see, a year ago, two years ago, I said we are going to see a lot more legislation happening around fashion, and we are seeing that, thankfully.

This is not going to decrease, it’s going to increase. I think producers need to be aware of the fact that greenwashing no longer works and it will not work anymore. Consumers are actually becoming a lot more aware. As I said, it’s very encouraging to see companies hold reliable. On that note, I would like to see also social media platforms to be held a lot more reliable when it comes to encouraging consumption. Because I think with social media, this is, “Buy the next thing,” we make fashion desirable, we make the next item to be the desirable one. I think we can make sustainability desirable. We can use social media platforms for good.

Stuart Crainer:
What does success look like for the Neri Karra brand going forward? Because you’re attaching different parameters to the way business operates.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Yes.

Stuart Crainer:
What does that mean in your own parameters of what a successful business is?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
For me, successful business is not just about profit. It has never been. I’ve researched businesses that have longevity, businesses that stand the test of time. Also, there is a very famous book, Built to Last, that also talks about this. One of the main characteristics is that profit is not first. It’s much more than profit. For me, when I think of the success of the business, I see it as a legacy. Does it stand the test of time? Does the next generation take the business to the next level? I’m very involved in the community that I’m part of, the community in Bulgaria. With the business, we have done a lot of helping people from disadvantaged backgrounds, a lot of charities. For me, that’s the success of the business. If I’m able to do better, to do good, that’s the parameter of success for me.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Along those lines, Neri, you’ve said many very wise things that I’ve written down, but one of the ones that really strikes me is “Make sustainability desirable,” because it makes it accessible to consumers and it puts it in the minds of leaders. I can’t help think but, when we link sustainability and resilience, you’ve sustained and thrived through a lifetime of challenges. As you think about your identity, how has that evolved? Who were you as a young girl and who are you now? Maybe, Stuart, similar to the question you asked on what’s the aspiration for Neri Karra, what’s the aspiration for you as a leader?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Who I am today is someone a lot more comfortable in my own skin, I would say, and that it has taken me a long time to get here. I don’t know if it was my background of being an ethnic minority facing discrimination, but I’ve always carried this insecurity and this feeling of not belonging in me. I’m now about to be 46 years old. I think I can say, I’m not going to say I’m there fully, but I’ve come a long way in being comfortable in my own skin, standing behind my decisions, and feeling a lot of sense of belonging.

Stuart Crainer:
What was it like, Neri, when you went back to Bulgaria to employ people? It must’ve been a strange experience. I mean, many people in your situation wouldn’t have gone back to Bulgaria.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Oh, no. What happened had to do with politics. Bulgarian people are completely different than what happened when the communist government was running Bulgaria. They themselves didn’t have much choice. I definitely separate the two, and it’s completely different. I actually went back to Bulgaria after the communism fell in 1989, in the 1990s. When I was 13 years old, we did go for vacation back to Bulgaria, and we had our own papers at that time. My brother went back to Bulgaria, he lives in Bulgaria. I have a lot of family still in Bulgaria. It doesn’t feel strange whatsoever, and there is still a very large, big Turkish community living in Bulgaria.

Stuart Crainer:
I should say as well, you mentioned earlier that when Russia invaded Ukraine, you stopped trading with Russia. That was a substantial part of your business, it wasn’t a small bit of your business, it was 60% of your business at one point.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Yes. Ukraine and Russia are at war. Ukraine is still one of our biggest markets. We still, of course, work with Ukraine even though there is war, we have clients ordering products from us. Even though war is going on there are still, people are still buying leather bags and products and accessories. We have our distributors telling us, “We help soldiers at night and we sell wallets during the day.”

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, in that response and many of your others, the theme that also jumps out at me is your ability to see the humanity in everyone regardless of context, and given your ability to go back to Bulgaria and pull out of a business when you disagree with the values of what’s happening. I’m curious, maybe as my last question for you today, you said that you have a sense of belonging, but what do you consider home and what defines home for you? Where is home for Neri today?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
It’s not physical. It’s my husband and my son, and wherever they are, that’s home.

Stuart Crainer:
It’s a short and sweet answer.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
It is. 

Stuart Crainer:
What about you, Kulleni, what does home mean to you?

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, my answer is very similar to yours, and it is founded in those that I love. My family is still all over the world. My extended family, which, and my parents still feel like because they’re in DC, I’ve got a sister in London, a brother in Nigeria. Sometimes it’s a Zoom call, sometimes it’s a phone call, but it is in my heart with all the people that I love and care about. You, Stuart?

Stuart Crainer:
Well, where home is? I’m probably more straightforward.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Are you going to give us your address? 

Stuart Crainer:
It’s just a zip code, yeah. But Neri, one final thing about your experience at Cambridge, what was your PhD in? You didn’t talk about that.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Yes. My PhD was in management. Well, the title is in management studies, but actually, my PhD was focused on my company. I used my company as an in-depth case study, and I studied international entrepreneurship and ethnic entrepreneurship. I loved being at Cambridge, honestly, it’s like one place, speaking of belonging, when I got there, I thought, “I’m not going to belong here.” I thought they made a mistake, first of all, by accepting me into the PhD program. They are going to tell me at any second now, “You need to go home. We made a mistake.” This is like, when I think back to it, I had so much of the imposter syndrome happening. In the end, I realized and I found people like me, who, I’m still friends with them today, and they were there also on a scholarship. I studied with the Trust Foundation, the Prince’s Trust was my scholarship at Cambridge. I found the other people who, like me, came from unusual backgrounds and became friends and lifelong friends with them. It was the best thing I ever did in my career.

Stuart Crainer:
Now you teach at Oxford, so you’ve got the full set.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Yes.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
They clearly knew what they were doing.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Oxford came by complete coincidence. They offered me to become an entrepreneurship expert. I really love being there as well. The students, I supervise and I coach students on their entrepreneurship projects, and it’s incredible. I absolutely, I’m so inspired by them because the ideas that they come up with, they go on to become real-life companies, first of all, and they look at the world in such a unique way; I’m really inspired by the students and they are also executive MBA students, so the level is really very high.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Neri, if you were to tell entrepreneurs, young, budding entrepreneurs, what’s the one piece of advice you give your students that you would want all of the audience to know about how to become a successful entrepreneur? How to think about being a responsible entrepreneur?

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Well, of course, I will encourage them to take a chance, but before saying that, I think they really need to identify, it’s not just about wanting to become an entrepreneur. I see this is where the mistake is being made quite often. Just because they want to have their own business, they will start a business, and that’s a mistake. They need to solve a real problem. They really need to understand their customers very well. What value are you providing? What problem are you solving? What are you doing differently than other entrepreneurs and other businesses out there? This is the heart of the business. So I really would advise them to think carefully. Actually, I listened very recently to an interview with Tope [Awotona, ed.], he’s the founder of Calendly. If I’m not mistaken, he’s from Nigeria. He was an immigrant as well, and he came to Atlanta. He really wanted to be an entrepreneur. He was fascinated by that. And the first few ventures he founded were not a success, but only when he really identified a problem that his customers were struggling with, he founded Calendly and he invested his own money, what I call frying in your own oils. Of course, Calendly today is highly successful. I think that’s a very good example of what I’m saying.

Stuart Crainer:
Neri, brilliant, what a fantastic story. We’re out of time. What a great story of the immigrant mindset, which you talked about at the beginning. Fantastic bravery of decision-making, resilience, and the power of education and the power of entrepreneurship to change lives and shape lives and shape the world. Neri, thank you very much for joining us.

Neri Karra Sillaman:
Thank you so much. It was so fun.

Kulleni Gebreyes:
Thank you so much, Neri, and thank you, Stuart.